TOPIC:

Hi All, following a conversation I had at the Southerns regarding trying to promote the class, I would think a way to sex the boat up and make it look a bit more modern would be to allow laminate mainsails, now I have a boring but very quick Ovington I feel that it would look a lot more High Tech and up to date. What are peoples objections to this. I would be willing to have one made for trialing and evaluation. Your views would be interesting, Cheers Graham

Apart from longevity would there be any other advantage to laminate sails? In principle it should mean we spend less on sails (or at least the mainsail). If that is the only effect then I see no reason why not.

As far as I know and I wait to be corrected there is no speed advantage, they would last longer, be a bit more expensive initially, and look so much funkier, also would improve business for sailmakers possibly. It would be great to get Mike MAcs views on this subject as he knows more about Albacore sails than anyone else. Also how about carbon jibsticks to save all the baging around of ally ones?

Laminate sails and carbon sticks would get my vote, as would a carbon rig.

Hi

one of the issues would be the weight of the sails,I do beleive that th elaminate sails are lightter, therefore there could be a competitive advantage.

We have to bbe careful, one of the reasons for the success of the albacore is that it is not about cheque book sailing, we stick to the principle of one design to reduce the possibility of this.

Would a carbon pole give an advantage?

Less weight definetly, so an advantage would be gained, at the moment, the cost of a pole is minimal, if we go to carbon, it possibly becomes at least twice the price.

Therefore, in principal, I would not want to change these rules.

If one boat gets a carbon rig, then they would have an advantage, if you look at phanttoms, the old woodies are not competeitive at all against the modern boats with Carbon rig and laminate sails.

Who would want to bring their wooden boat to the nationals, and sail against a carbon rigged, laminate sailed boat?

I suspect not many?



regards

Paul
Alb 8158

Thanks for replies so far, Im not proposing a carbon rig just the jib stick, as regards cheque book sailing, I don't think having a carbon jib stick and laminate main would amount to this, yes a laminate main would be lighter but not by much and don't think would offer a performance advantage, Phantoms etc had a big breakthrough with FRP hulls much as we have with the Ovis, come on lets have some more views, lets hear from the sailmakers, cheers Graham

Difficult one this been through it a few times! start at the bottom

www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_po...blished-hull-weights

I agree with Paul.

You start with a Carbon Jib stick, then tiller extension, then rudder stock, then rudder, then boom, then mast.

This leads to cheque book sailing!

I will have to research Laminate sails.

Cheers

Phil

Lots of issues here. Carbon jibstick-the weight is not significant in overall terms, but is easier on the elastic holding it up. No brainer really.

Graduates have adopted modern sail materials. I doubt anyone would regret it. Less stretch, transparency, promoting sail development in a small class.

If the class goes revolutionary, then half the hull weight. Or carbon spars? Not for me, but a little evolution might be healthy.

Stewart
AL8072

The carbon rig comment was tongue-in-cheek as I know it is a step too far right now.

My other boat is a Phantom, which did go through the carbon rig transition, but it certainly has not created check book sailing. Instead it created a step change in performance as the carbon rig is much easier to use and now that the fleet has moved over no-one can outspend anyone else. 10 year boats are still in the top ten at nationals and my 7 year old boat with original laminate sails is still on the pace, which can't be said for my 7/8 year old Albacore sails.

This is why I prefer laminate sails as they continue to perform far longer than Dacron. In terms of the carbon jib stick, I would think the performance difference is negligible, the usability difference significant and the cost difference not a lot in the scheme of things as I suspect it is a one-off cost for the life of the boat.

Have heard this argument before and completely agree with Phil and Paul, it will lead to cheque book sailing. Also don't agree they last longer, experience with fireballs at our club bears this out. What about the look of them too, they look awfull compared with a lovely white sail. The Alb is not a development class and while Ovington have provided a good boat and a welcome boost to our numbers It is a great pity we allowed the new boats to be produced without heeding weight distribution issues, effectively providing an advantage under certain conditions. Cant see why carbon poles would help anyone except dingy chandlers! All up sailing weight has to be same.
Strongly against to sum up. Jude and Paul

As a newbie to the fleet I appreciate the affordable entry to the fleet. Its nice to know that even with an old boat and second hand sails you can still be close to the front of the fleet.
I think it is true that the Ovington hulls have a slight speed advantage but its not enough to divide the fleet. Carbon-fiber rigs and fittings would begin to create a greater division but to some degree the cheque book sailing already exists because those that can afford an Ovie and then new sails every season will always have the edge. Having said that you still need to point the thing in the right direction and sail it well.
What I like about the idea of laminate sails is that they last longer and in theory would mean that they remain competitive much longer.

I have to say I really don't understand the cheque book sailing argument against having better equipment.

To me chequebook sailing means that you have to consistently spend money to stay at the top of the fleet. There are two ways that this happens:

1) Equipment that ages quickly. For example hulls that lose their stiffness quickly because they are made from GRP only and dacron sails that can sometimes stretch in one windy race.

2) Open rules where continuous development grandfathers designs very quickly (let's say for the sake of argument 10 years, the life of a moderately competitive FRP dinghy).

Now it could be due to the fact that wood does not loose stiffness that Albacores have remained competitive for a very long time, but as far as I know Albacores are just not being made in wood anymore. This means most new hulls will be aging into uncompetiveness like many other classes. Certainly my speed hull is heavier and floppier than it was 8 years ago.

Back to the OP questions, we would find a carbon jib pole much safer than an aluminium one which can be really quite dangerous in a strong blow if the jib starts flapping. The cost of a pole is far, far less than a suite of sails and will last far far longer. Meanwhile laminate sails (which can be just plain white if that is desirable) should outlast the dacron ones by a fair bit for not that much more cost. It really doesn't sound like cheque book sailing to me.

I say the weakest facet of even the most modestly equipped Albacore is and always will be the driver and crew. I therefore conclude that the only "check book" sailing that brings a real advantage is TIME ON THE WATER. Spend several hundred hours in disciplined, hard practice in your Albacore over the course of one season and guess what? you WILL get better.

It will cost you - but it will be money well spent.

best regards to all,

Barney

My Supernova uses laminate sails, so I have some first hand experience over quite a few years. I can safely say that they do seem to retain their optimum racing shape considerably longer than Dacron does. HOWEVER their life expectancy overall is considerably shorter - unsurprisingly they delaminate! Dacron sails will last for years longer than current laminates do - but possibly not in the best of racing shape.

A safety argument for carbon jib sticks is as far as I can see completely bogus. There may be other advantages, but I would have thought that shattered carbon fibre is far more dangerous than bent aluminium.

Laminate sails have to be dried out after each sail, they cannot be left in the boat as a lot of people do. Yes they may last a little longer if you take them home and dry them out, but i guess that could be said about polyester sails.

On another note we are in the early stages of allowing floor stiffness to be increased in old boats to keep the feader boats going.

Best wishes

Phil