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2015 PY 10 years 10 months ago #10185

  • Richard Smith
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I believe the Flying Fifteens operate a 3 tier handicap system and that clubs generally accept this. Has any one got any know knowledge of their system and it use and how its communicated to the clubs?

Cheers

Richard
6959
Aeolian

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2015 PY 10 years 10 months ago #10186

  • derek+marilyn
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Hello Richard and fellow members
I have just taken the liberty of emailing the Secretary of the Flying Fifteen Class Association to ask about this matter, as follows:

Hello Keith
As a long standing member of the National Albacore Association, but not our Secretary, I am writing to you hopefully for some advice.
The Albacores are a very old and much loved design by Uffa Fox, but still being a popular class, we now have many extremely modern boats in the fleet that sail under the same 2015 PY as the original wooden Fairey Albacores, of which there are still many in existence, but they no longer race due to the seemingly unfair PY rating now in use. This has created much discussion on our Class forum, but so far the Association has not been able to find a solution to revitalise interest in those owners of older boats. It has been suggested that your Association has managed to resolve this dilemma, and that you now possibly have three separate PY numbers in use for your fleets of differing age. Please could you provide some advice on this matte which could help us to devise a fair and equitable solution, and hopefully to get bigger fleets of Albacores out in the racing scene. Any advice will be most helpful, and appreciated by many of us owners of our older boats. Thank you, and kind regards. Derek

Hopefully I will not have trodden on any toes; but if so, I do apologise, and hopefully this may push forward a discussion that I have been following with interest for some time. Regards to all.
Derek and Marilyn Lyne
"DORAI" Albacore No 784

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2015 PY 10 years 10 months ago #10193

  • Graham5893
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Hello Derek & Marilyn,

With reference to your letter to Keith Jamieson of the Flying Fifteens, I own a classic Fifteen, 617, which I have had for nearly 20 years and can comment on the reason for the split in the handicaps of the Fifteen fleet. Whether it will help our case in the Albacores I'm not sure in terms of working out how it would apply to the class, but nonetheless I am in support of some suitable handicapping as you will have seen from my comments elsewhere on this thread.

Anyway, here goes. The Flying Fifteen is similar to the Albacore in that it is essentially a one design class with freedom in the layout of controls. Like the Albacore, build tolerances were quite wide as the boat was designed to be built by any builder from any material. Also like the Albacore, various builders used the rules tolerances to extract more performance and the greatest of these was the late Roy Windebank. Roy started experimenting when sail numbers were in the low 2000s and various MK1, 2 and 3 versions appeared, all with good characteristics on various points of sailing. The breakthrough came with his Mk4 hull at around sail number 2700. This hull was a step change and immediately dominated the class, with good performance all round. Other versions followed, but Roy's next step up came with the Mk9 hull which has evolved to the current Mk10. The rules have been tightened up now, so that there is much more consistency in hull shape, but essentially the Windebank shape continues to dominate the class with proven performance and longevity in the hands of the current builders, Ovington, who of course also now build the Albacore.

When determining the break points for classic and silver fleet handicaps in the Fifteen points, the obvious answer was to base it on the arrival of the Mk4 and Mk9 hull shapes. Hence, classic Fifteens now have sail numbers below 2700, but also include Wyche & Coppock and Copeland boats above that number as they continued to be built in traditional moulds. Silver fleet boats are between 2700 and 3200, when the Mk9 arrived. However, this limits the fleet size a bit and in the UK I think there is now a dispensation up to 3400 which recognises that even the older Mk9s are getting on a bit. Internationally, the 3200 limit still applies for now. I'm sure Keith will correct me if things have moved on from this!

The handicap numbers themselves have moved around a bit with experience but at least it has helped the fleet to stay active at club level in mixed fleets. At class open meetings the classics and silvers either get their own start after the main fleet, or their numbers can be separated out if everyone sails together, it depends on the size of the fleet at the event. I did sail one event in Scotland where the handicap numbers were used within the fleet, which made for some interesting numbers, but was a useful exercise.

So, that's the story with the Fifteens, but the question is, can this logic be applied to the Albacore fleet? I don't know enough about the class to be able to comment with any authority at all, but I do understand that the Woof shape is significant, and was copied by various builders, I also understand that the current Ovington hulls have a performance advantage. Whether this can be well enough identified within the fleet to provide a demarcation by sail number as with the Fifteens is for others to judge.

Hope this helps anyway.

Graham
Natural Ally 5893

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2015 PY 10 years 10 months ago #10194

  • MrGin
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The ovington Hull shape is woof shaped as is the speed hull shape, in fact they were all built off the same mould, this has not changed in the last 30+ years. The Young hull shape is exactly the same as the woof hull shape except in the first foot from the bow. The length of stem on the young is to the maximum tolerance and the woof length of stem is to the minimum. This all comes within the thickness of the keel band capping. The biggest difference between the old wooden boats and the ovingtons apart from age is the quality of the finish ie gel coat vs paint/varnish as well as the quality of the foils.

With respect to older hull shapes. The fairy and the fosrite do have a slight disadvantage, although there are some fairys that have consistently been on the pace over the last few years. The biggest disadvantage as to us all is that time has passed by!

Best wishes
Phil
A8152(Ovi) & 7404(Young)

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